Arturo Freeman

[GBGuy20]

Y did no1 tell me we signed him?! i noticed on the past headlines on packersnews.com.....wtf have i been doin?! i never miss packer news! is there anything else i should know eo?

[adamsjs11]

Originally Posted by GBGuy20

Y did no1 tell me we signed him?! i noticed on the past headlines on packersnews.com.....wtf have i been doin?! i never miss packer news! is there anything else i should know eo?

Well Favre still doesn't understand that his arm and desire can no longer make up for his inability to read defenses.

[adamsjs11]

Does anyone other than me think that if Favre played for anyone but the Packers, say the Bucs or the Cardinals, and he had won a SB many moons ago, that he'd be considered as good as he is now? Maybe he would be considered like a Dave Krieg that won a SB. The guy puts up good numbers ever year and all, but if not for the "Minister of Defense" perhaps the guy would have never won a SB. GB was the first team to benefit from free agency. Without that they probably wouldn't have won the SB in '96/97'. I'm not so much posting this to get a dig at EO and GBGUY, rather I'm trying to gauge your feelings about his legacy.

By the way does anyone else remember when Larry Allen was in his second year, playing the Packers and Reggie White decleated him with a one arm swim move?

[becky-mom]

Originally Posted by adamsjs11

Does anyone other than me think that if Favre played for anyone but the Packers, say the Bucs or the Cardinals, and he had won a SB many moons ago, that he'd be considered as good as he is now? Maybe he would be considered like a Dave Krieg that won a SB. The guy puts up good numbers ever year and all, but if not for the "Minister of Defense" perhaps the guy would have never won a SB. GB was the first team to benefit from free agency. Without that they probably wouldn't have won the SB in '96/97'. I'm not so much posting this to get a dig at EO and GBGUY, rather I'm trying to gauge your feelings about his legacy.

By the way does anyone else remember when Larry Allen was in his second year, playing the Packers and Reggie White decleated him with a one arm swim move?

I personally feel that to compare Favre to DAVE KRIEG is lunacy.

Now...I do not feel that things would have been the same if he had gotten tossed around to several DIFFERENT teams...But the man IS what he IS...a true leader...an excellent QB...and when he goes, an era of QB's end...for he is the last of the great leaders of the 90's...Montana, Elway, Aikman, ...and Favre.

Dave Krieg??? Please.

[pjdeano04]

Originally Posted by adamsjs11

Does anyone other than me think that if Favre played for anyone but the Packers, say the Bucs or the Cardinals, and he had won a SB many moons ago, that he'd be considered as good as he is now? Maybe he would be considered like a Dave Krieg that won a SB. The guy puts up good numbers ever year and all, but if not for the "Minister of Defense" perhaps the guy would have never won a SB. GB was the first team to benefit from free agency. Without that they probably wouldn't have won the SB in '96/97'. I'm not so much posting this to get a dig at EO and GBGUY, rather I'm trying to gauge your feelings about his legacy.

By the way does anyone else remember when Larry Allen was in his second year, playing the Packers and Reggie White decleated him with a one arm swim move?

I'm sure they don't just hand out 3 mvps to the "Dave Krieg" QB types. Top that with his many years of 30 + TD passes, consecutive game streak, leadership up the wazoo and you're still looking at arguably one of the best ever. And if you listen to Terry Bradshaw then you are looking at the best ever.

[adamsjs11]

Originally Posted by pjdeano04

I'm sure they don't just hand out 3 mvps to the "Dave Krieg" QB types. Top that with his many years of 30 + TD passes, consecutive game streak, leadership up the wazoo and you're still looking at arguably one of the best ever. And if you listen to Terry Bradshaw then you are looking at the best ever.

Ya I was drunk when I wrote that last night never mind.

[clarke]

Originally Posted by becky-mom

I personally feel that to compare Favre to DAVE KRIEG is lunacy.

Now...I do not feel that things would have been the same if he had gotten tossed around to several DIFFERENT teams...But the man IS what he IS...a true leader...an excellent QB...and when he goes, an era of QB's end...for he is the last of the great leaders of the 90's...Montana, Elway, Aikman, ...and Favre.

Dave Krieg??? Please.

The Dave Krieg comment is crazy, but so is putting Aikman up there with the other guys. There are 2 ways to measure a QB. First is stats, and Aikmans are not up there with Favre, Marino and Elway (or even Dave Kriegs and Jim Everett's).

The 2nd is leadership, but this is harder to substantiate than the first, but is given away freely. Anybody that tells me that you need a great leader to win a Super Bowl, all I need to say is Trent Dilfer. It takes an entire team to win. I do not feel it diminishes Marino's individual career because he never won a Super Bowl. This was due to him playing on a team that ignored defense (and running). I also would not have blamed Elway, because he was 0-3 without Davis at RB, and 2-0 with. Was it Elway or was it Davis.

Now, if you say Dilfer only won 1 Super Bowl, therefore it was an aberration, then I give you exhibit B, which is Jim Plunkett. Here is a man that threw for 34 less TDs than Interceptions (or, in other words, 34 more Ints than TDs) for his career. During his 2 (TWO) Super Bowl winning seasons, he was +2 for TDs vs Ints each year. However, using that "great leader" crap, he probably should be a Hall of Famer. Don't buy that myself.

Need more: Doug Williams - a 2nd stringer who had not started an NFL game since 1982, was the Super Bowl MVP after the 1987 seasons.

Mark Rypien?
Jeff Hostetler - another backup that wins the Super Bowl
Jim McMahon

I am not trying to diminish Troy Aikman. He is certainly a great leader. You can substitute Brady in here too, until his career numbers are what Favre's and Marino's and Elways are, however, being a Great Leader does not make you a Hall of Famer. Being a Great QB who is also a Great Leader makes you a Hall of Famer.

Not all great QBs win (Marino, Tarkenton, Moon, Fouts, etc.); Not all Super Bowl winning QBs are Great (see above); Aikman was a **** good QB, but, in comparison with those in his era, he was not GREAT - Montana, Marino, Elway, Kelly surpass him. So does Moon. How many QBs from 1 era get to go to the Hall of Fame and be called great? Aikman is immortal because of his teams great accomplishments which he was a catalyst for. He was a great leader. But it is not as if he had Correll Buckhalter behind him, and Scott Fitzkee catching passes, and the Olsen Twins anchoring his offensive line. He was surrounded by a lot of very good players, some Hall of Famers, in a great system.

Being a competent QB on a GREAT TEAM makes you a Super Bowl winning QB.

[eoeleven]

Originally Posted by adamsjs11

Does anyone other than me think that if Favre played for anyone but the Packers, say the Bucs or the Cardinals, and he had won a SB many moons ago, that he'd be considered as good as he is now? Maybe he would be considered like a Dave Krieg that won a SB. The guy puts up good numbers ever year and all, but if not for the "Minister of Defense" perhaps the guy would have never won a SB. GB was the first team to benefit from free agency. Without that they probably wouldn't have won the SB in '96/97'. I'm not so much posting this to get a dig at EO and GBGUY, rather I'm trying to gauge your feelings about his legacy.

By the way does anyone else remember when Larry Allen was in his second year, playing the Packers and Reggie White decleated him with a one arm swim move?

OK Adam you find me one QB in history that once named started never did not have a 3000 yard game, never did not throw 30 tds, never missed a game, is the all time leader in playoff TDs, has 3 league recognized MVPS, in the top four all time in attempts, completetions, yards, and TDs, a minimum 11 wins in the playoffs, and thats never had a losing season. (rememebr the Packers were 4 and 12 the year before they added Favre and had a total of 33 wins in the 6 years prior to him or 5.5 per season). When you find that QB then we will talk until then your words are hallow speculation and not factual enough to spark conversation.

[adamsjs11]

Aikman should be first ballot hall of fame though. But you never know these days. He may not put up the numbers of a Farve, he didn't have the arm to do so. But he was deadly accurate and won 3 SB's. So I put him in the bottom part of the top 10 all time.

[clarke]

Originally Posted by adamsjs11

Aikman should be first ballot hall of fame though. But you never know these days. He may not put up the numbers of a Farve, he didn't have the arm to do so. But he was deadly accurate and won 3 SB's. So I put him in the bottom part of the top 10 all time.

I personally don't think he should go, though I believe he will be there. In his era there will be, at the minimum, Montana, Elway, Marino, Young, Favre, Aikman. Other possibilities for same era: Moon (who should, looking at the numbers) and Simms.

Now, I don't think Simms will, but being from New York, and the NFL loves highlighting New York, its not out of the realm of possibilities. Montana, Elway, Marino and Favre are locks and should be. Kelly too. Now thats 5. How many from 1 era should go. I loved Moon, but trying to keep the word elite as special, I say no. Same with Aikman, whose numbers are rather pedestrian. Think of the QBs that have as good or better numbers. Dave Krieg, Jim Everitt, Ron Jaworski, Steve DeBerg, Steve Grogan (20 more TDs in 1000 less attempts), Vinny Testaverde, Randall Cunningham (40 more TDs for career, 500 less attempts, 20+ less Ints);

In fact, I think Cunningham should be considered sooner (and he does not belong at all) because of how the QB position has changed, and he really did revolutionize it. But he was a great athlete, not a great QB.

I also would leave Young off the ballot too, because I believe that he was aided more than Montana by a great system, and again, to keep the Hall truly special. I just cannot have more than 10% of the players at any one position be in the Hall. It is crazy. Its like putting 40-60 pitchers in the Hall of Fame from any one decade. Just not right.